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West Virginia's Mountainous Imponderables

Submitted by pmcarpenter on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 5:51am.

P.M. Carpenter

THE FIFTH COLUMNIST by P.M. Carpenter

Look at it this way: West Virginia's combined Democratic vote last night -- in a primary -- was roughly 25,000 more than what John Kerry generated there in the general election of 2004.

Sounds impressive, doesn't it? Now, does it mean anything? I haven't a clue. Nor does any other political scribe this morning, but it's the sort of analytical entree they'll have you feasting on throughout the day, most commonly served with side dishes of utmost certainty.

You may take it, or leave it, as you wish. At this early stage of the game it makes little difference. The same goes for all the other exit-polled statistics that exploded onto the screen last night and this morning have made their way onto the printed page.

Some were just plain bizarre. Such as those that "showed mistrust about Mr. Obama," which, as the New York Times added to its reporting, is "a relatively rare finding in Democratic primaries." To be a trifle more specific, "More than half said Mr. Obama was not honest and trustworthy," but we all know how and by whom that statistical outlier was cultivated.

Of course, 63 percent of West Virginia primary voters also thought the gas-tax holiday scam was a boffo idea, so some indigenous opinions may have come more naturally expressed than intelligent endotherms would like to think.

Others statistics, if true, were downright chilling. Such as the one reported by the Washington Post: that "only a narrow majority of Democratic primary voters said they would support Obama in the general election if he were to get the party's nod."

But again, one can take that or leave it at this early stage of the general campaign season. Because the political variables that went into the primary results were so enthusiastically warped and twisted by the heat of the Democratic contest, they rendered definitive -- or anything close to reliable -- conclusions for the future impossible.

Yet the most chilling statistic, which, because of its shame factor, probably is true? "Two in 10 white West Virginia voters said race was an important factor in their votes." That would be the two in 10 who were willing to admit that the particular hue of a candidate's skin is a key and valid determinant in their electoral behavior.

Among this atavistic 20 percent "more than 8 in 10" said they "backed Mrs. Clinton." Now there's a Democratic primary-victory stat to be proud of -- hail the hardworking, toothless hayseed vote, otherwise known as the GOP base, which is likely why so many said they wouldn't be supporting the presumptive Democratic nominee anyway, come fall.

None of this is to say that Barack Obama cannot carry West Virginia in the general. Even though Democratic presidential candidates haven't carried the overall white vote since what seems like Martin Van Buren's grandfather's time, Bill Clinton won W.Va. in both of his contests (of course he had the correct hue of skin) and the profound, post-Bush yearning for something different in 2009 could yet sway a majority to Obama's column. It does, however, call into question the wisdom of pouring Democratic resources into the state for all of five electoral votes.

For just one step away there are 21 in Pennsylvania and 20 in Ohio. And, as Democratic strategist Dave "Mudcat" Saunders pointed out yesterday to The Politico, "McCain’s going to camp on the Pennsylvania-Ohio border. He knows if he wins those states he can’t lose."

Saunders added that "What people don’t understand about Appalachia is that we’ve heard all this 'hope' and 'change' stuff since the English kicked the Scotch-Irish out in the 1700s. We’re 'hoped' out. Nothing ever changes out here" -- to which I might add that that's because so many of its impoverished residents have historically voted for racial bullshit over economic basics. It's been their call, not the pols'.

Nevertheless Saunders said there is indeed hope in the other direction -- for Obama, that is -- if he "come[s] with some solid policies." And, along these lines, Rep. Rick Boucher of Virginia projected the region "would ultimately gravitate to Obama’s message of economic development, telemedicine to expand health care, federal support for water infrastructure projects, and broadband development to provide expanded Internet service and attract high tech jobs."

We'll see. Because there are, and probably always will be, those electoral legions beyond hope from any which direction.

I give you, for instance, Clinton-supporter Mary Ann Kominar of Kermit, W.Va. -- wife of a Democratic state delegate, no less -- who done thunk all this out deeply and said: "A lot of people are saying 'McCain looks better every day.' I’m opposed to Obama because of his religious beliefs. I believe Rev. [Jeremiah] Wright told me a whole lot. The fact that [Obama] doesn’t pledge allegiance to the flag, he doesn’t wear a flag pin, concern me."

Yes, it concern me too, until I stop to think what a comedy representative democracy can be. Let's just be thankful we live not in a direct one.

Please respond to P.M.'s commentary by leaving comments below and sharing them with the BuzzFlash community. For personal questions or comments you can contact him at fifthcolumnistmail@gmail.com

THE FIFTH COLUMNIST by P.M. Carpenter

On the scene in West

Submitted by smithsan on Thu, 11/13/2008 - 9:04pm.

On the scene in West Virginia, introduced their viewers to Janis. She's not a particularly enthusiastic Hillary Clinton supporter. --------- smithsan virginia drug rehab

up yours too Vetta

Submitted by wvsplinter on Thu, 05/15/2008 - 3:13pm.

Just think, all those stupid West Virginians have just as much voice in this election as you do.

Time to Go.........

Submitted by RedBaronSIU on Thu, 05/15/2008 - 3:14am.

After tonights display of so-called "punditry" by Pat Buchanan on the Chris Matthews show; I've personally had it with the bias, imbalanced comments frothing from the pie-hole of this thinly-veiled bigot pretending to be offering a "neutral" assessment of Obama's campaign, in particular, and Dems best interests at large. All the while using the citizens of West Virginia as cover for his screed.

This guy has the impartiality of a right-handed ONE-ARMED MAN. He has utterly NO BUSINESS offering to us, on a supposedly "left-leaning" channel THAT which he has vehemently opposed for more than three decades. Its pathetic when even his co-anchors have to cower off-camera, and pass the baton back and forth between themselves rather then admonish this cretin for the vulgar boor that he is. When his dander is up--he can barely contain his racist attitudes utilizing some of the most illogical and disconnected references I've seen in a long time-----and NONE OF THEM want to call him out on it!

His history in this regard goes all the way back to a favored 'mentor' of his: one Samuel Francis. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Francis and:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=718

Where it's noted that this Francis character is....

"Far more than Buchanan's friend and editor, Francis was his mentor. Buchanan knows Francis' racist oeuvre inside and out, citing some seven Francis pieces. Buchanan's basic argument in State of Emergency -- that America should be a white country and that dark-skinned immigrants threaten it -- was made by Francis for years."

His continued and allowed presence on MSNBC is, to me, the moral equivalancy of, say, Louis Farrakhan expressing his views of "conservatism" every night on FOX news---you're right---IT'LL NEVER HAPPEN! So why do WE allow our decisions to be influenced by the drivel of this long-time, hypocritical racist with a history as "distinguished" by the references below?

http://www.opinion-columns.com/praguewriter/2006/08/pat_buchanan_ra.html
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/08/22/buchanan-white-dominance/

If anyone has the phone number and/or mail addresses to the MSNBC producers...I would appreciate them posting the information below. I'll take it after that. The time has come to say...Good-bye, Pat.

American cancer

Submitted by cagey on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 5:11pm.

Poverty in America has consequences for the physical and intellectual health of our country as a whole, and is especially pernicious in regions like Appalachia. Ending poverty is what John Edwards is all about. Interesting that he's endorsing Obama tonight.

up yours PM

Submitted by wvsplinter on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 3:46pm.

Not everyone in WV is quite as stupid as you suggest. Regardless, thanks for the input--we'll keep your sentiments in mind when Buzzflash begs for cash every week. Cheers!!!

up yours, hahaha, brilliant defense of your amazing state

Submitted by VettaKing on Thu, 05/15/2008 - 3:52am.

"Of course, 63 percent of West Virginia primary voters also thought the gas-tax holiday scam was a boffo idea, so some indigenous opinions may have come more naturally expressed than intelligent endotherms would like to think." Apparently about 63% of them are stupid. WV is an aberration. Why did they vote so differently than every other state? It's not what's the matter with Kansas. It's now what's the matter with West Virginia. It's impressive that a state was able to make itself look so out of touch to the rest of the country in one day. Kentucky will be the next state to show off their astounding educational system. Then it will be over and rethug lite Billary can take her triangulating ass home to New York, or is it Pennsylvania, or Arkansas, or one of the other dozen states she is allegedly from.

sigh

Submitted by Nephwrack on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 3:15pm.

ok that's it, i'm sick of all the infighting. i'm as guilty of it as the next democrat, but that's it. no more from me. i long ago resolved to vote for whoever gets nominated on the democratic ticket. cant we all just at least agree that whomever is elected to the democratic nomination will make a much better leader than john mcbush?

Neph......

Submitted by RedBaronSIU on Thu, 05/15/2008 - 3:27am.

I agree.....add me to that list. Current events have dictated what the reality is. Now, its time to address what REALLY matters; and not the disruptive bickering over which candidate is the best choice for us----THAT has been decided; irrespective of the wet-dream fantasies the media still wants to perpetuate.

I have been far more guilty of this than you, however, given the last few days events---I have refrained from making any comments, because I feel its time to move on.

If the HRC backers want to continue the distractions of zero communicado---fine, I believe I can talk around it and dwell on the media's malfeasance and John McCAIN'T.

But, we'll see whether HRC's followers want to dwell on bitterness or unitedly move on to what really matters-----that is, making the Repugs a historical foot-note.

That's easy to agree to,

Submitted by Barry Schwartz on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 5:49pm.

That's easy to agree to, because "whoever is elected to the Democratic nomination" is empirically equivalent to saying "Barack Obama". :) I would agree, though, that John McCain could be much worse than Hillary Clinton as president of the United States. But I think that Hillary Clinton as president of the United States would be a disaster for the Democratic Party, as she has demonstrated first by selling out to oligarchs such as Rupert Murdoch and then dividing and polarizing the party. We are picking not only a presidential candidate but a de facto leader of the Democratic Party, and Hillary Clinton is no good for the latter post, particularly given her self-serving belittlement of the Democratic Party's most reliable voting bloc.

Barry.....

Submitted by RedBaronSIU on Thu, 05/15/2008 - 3:45am.

I think what you've offered here is probably the best argument against the Repug-Corporate media's unrelenting current, yet desperate, push to unify and create the 'so-called' dream ticket with Obama and HRC---it simply will not work.

I am glad to see the stirrings (I believe), of the progressive Democratic Movement TRULY recognizing our decisions made during the next six months will be the MOST profound in U.S. history since the Civil War.

We will sorely need someone who TRULY believes and demonstrates the principles of visionary Democracy, not expediency.

Careful PM!

Submitted by Clemsy Diggs on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:49am.

Being realistic about demographics is soooo politically incorrect.

I mean really. The only viable target for American Angst are those with college degrees who dress well, eat sushi and inform themselves from a variety of sources.

If only they were as ignorant as everyone else, we'd all be in bliss.

(Why do you think my net persona is named Clemsy? No one with a name like that could possibly have a graduate degree!

Oooops.)

Stay away from most of that

Submitted by Barry Schwartz on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 5:51pm.

Stay away from most of that sushi, the profits go to Reverend Moon.

I get it! Moon's plan is to

Submitted by Clemsy Diggs on Thu, 05/15/2008 - 5:12am.

I get it! Moon's plan is to make give all those American liberal elites mercury poisoning!

Really?

Submitted by bettysdad on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 7:41pm.

Could you expand on the sushi-Moon connection? Thanks

knuckledraggin' hillbillies (etc)

Submitted by BCampbell on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:42am.

I live in Charleston WV and voted for Obama. So did my husband. Oh, and we are both (white) Democratic State Delegates. Please bear in mind that not everyone in the state is an atavistic, ig'nant, toothless, racist, cracker hayseed. In fact, if I read the results right, at least 26% of us are not. That's cold comfort, I know, but let us have it.

Thats the problem.....BC,

Submitted by RedBaronSIU on Thu, 05/15/2008 - 4:04am.

I have with the media---while pretending to find some snap-shot justification for an event to so-call "help us understand it"--they brutalize AND trivialize an entire segment of the populace while doing so---its all SO TIDY! While I want to commend you all for being in that 26% percentile for your "courage", I think the other 67% that went for Hillary, for the most part, will remain democratic in the fall.

Not all of THEM voted for Hillary--simply because Obama is Black, anymore then 92% of Black votes go for Obama because hes Black. I think she campaigned with a message they responded too, whether disingenuous or not; and he did not reach out to them, whether wise, or not;---so you get what you got.

But, as a so-called "minority" myself----I can totally relate to how you all feel in W.V.---with the media portraying you as something too dumb to swallow food.

Believe me.....I understand; now, ain't THAT ironic in this "divided" America?

Keep it up!

Submitted by Will B on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:59am.

Your support for Obama is great and we back you and other sane voters in WV wholeheartedly! But to understand the amazing polls showing the high numbers of Hillary voters there who believe Obama is a Muslim and therefore would vote for McCain over Obama simply describes an Democratic Party electorate in desperate need of education. And that is not sophist or elitist, it's being a 'realist'.

Ugly comments from the Carpenter again

Submitted by elirarey on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:27am.

I wholeheartedly support Obama and hope he takes the general election away from that crazy person John McCain.

However, I do not support the kind of unpleasant, superior rhetoric that is revealed in this post. Buzzflash is one of my primary (no pun intended) sources of news, and it shames me every time I come across an editorial post like this one. Who are you to dismiss a population with such unabashed scorn? Because their political opinions and their ways of arriving at those opinions are not what you would like? So there are a lot of racist people in West Virginia -- does that excuse the way that you insult them? What if you took them and their concerns seriously? Maybe then you wouldn't find their future votes so incredibly unpredictable.

Barack Obama is running on a campaign based on unity, compassion, and understanding. Your post here shows the opposite of all these things. Shape up or lose readers.

--ELI

Uhhhh

Submitted by bettysdad on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 1:35pm.

So what if there are a lot of men in WV that beat their wives? "Does that excuse the way that you insult them?" All forms of behavior, no matter how egregious, should be respected, if not applauded.

Bed Bugs

Submitted by Will B on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 11:16am.

I think the point PM is making is that WV doesn't represent a trend in the US electorate. Are there racists in Appalachia? Yup, in fact everywhere - plenty in Western Washington even. Are there poorly educated voters in Appalachia? Why, Yup 'gain', but ignorance doesn't respect borders. However, apparantly nowhere has the trend been so high amoung whites as in Appalachia, and that’s why Ohio, PA and WV all swung towards Hillary's Republican rhetoric and gas tax cut pandering. Not even in the Deep South are people so racist, or apparantly ignorant. You simply cannot base predictions on the future votes of American whites on Appalachians - PERIOD. Of cours, Hillary and Rove are using WV as a litmus for the rest of America, which justifies PM's remarks. While both Hillary and Carl love wine and lattes, they feel its fine to denigrate white-collar whites (you know the Democratic Party's core) as wine swilling, latte drinking, elite and effeminate men who don’t actually work for a living. Now those are two bad bedfellow!

Don't fool yourself--the

Submitted by Barry Schwartz on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 6:00pm.

Don't fool yourself--the reason the Deep South seems less racist in Democratic primary voting is that, for instance, Alabama is 26% Black, while West Virginia is 3% Black.

Probably correct...

Submitted by Will B on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 6:11pm.

...sadly. The question for Democrats is: Are we are going to be intimidated by our racist heritage? Give up on Barack because he's a black man? Pander to our hateful half??...Not me pal....Feel up to a challenge?

That makes you......

Submitted by RedBaronSIU on Thu, 05/15/2008 - 4:34am.

Braver than MANY whites, Will B!

Because the anomaly I have the most trouble with....is the one that drives a person, ruled by the despicable vices of hate, fear, and racism, and against their own personal interests, will cultivate and support a situation that has, or could, potentially kill their own children----FOR A LIE!

Rather than NOT confronting those inner demons and fears, and promote an individual who could possibly CORRECT that situation, simply because his being BLACK makes its easier for them to simply NOT EVEN TRY to overcome those fears and racism......

By this definition alone, they're practicing self-extermination!

to me, THATS......mind-boggling.....and testimony to the power of hate!

New Job Offer for Hillary

Submitted by tommy paine on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:07am.

Let's make her President of West Virginia !

"... what a comedy representative democracy can be."

Submitted by quousque on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 9:34am.

More akin to a tragedy ......... unless schadenfreude floats your boat?

It appears that American democracy has run its course, and is now incapable of providing us with a government that will address its dire problems before it is too late.

So it goes ...

Curmudgeonry is a blight and

Submitted by Barry Schwartz on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 6:02pm.

Curmudgeonry is a blight and danger upon the land.

Let's not beat around the bush about West Virginians

Submitted by ETS on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 9:00am.

These crackers will never vote for a N*****, period.

Now isn't that something the Hillary Clinton campaign can be proud of?

Someone finally said the magic word

Submitted by pgbowden on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 8:28am.

Appalachia. You got 30 talking heads and so-called political "experts" all over the cable channels last night and not one of them uttered the patently obvious. Hillary is wearing Obama out in Appalachia. This has been documented in several left-leaning blogs for weeks. Obama doesn't have a rural white working class problem. He has an Appalachian problem. The last I heard there are plenty of rural "hard-working" blue collar whites in the Plains and Mountain West states--and lo and behold--they seem to like Obama just fine. Now; this is not meant as an insult the people of Appalachia. These are good people. Salt of the earth, as they say. But they also lean towards being clannish, distrustful of the "outsider." They are lower income and more poorly educated than the national average. That's just a fact. If these people want to vote for Hillary Clinton now or republicans in the fall, that's certainly their right. But please spare me the coal-dusted whine about how nothing ever seems to change there. Because anyone who can be fooled into thinking Hillary is a coal miner's daughter or that John McCain "shares my values" is, well, 'nuff said.

Appalachia

Submitted by wizardofohm on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 6:52pm.

"Over twenty million people live in Appalachia, an area roughly the size of the United Kingdom, covering mostly mountainous, often isolated areas from the border of Mississippi and Alabama in the south to Pennsylvania and New York in the north. Appalachia also includes parts of the states of Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky, Ohio,and the entire state of West Virginia." From Wikipedia. It appears that the underlying racism that has swayed the northern APPALAASHAN states against Sen. Obama is not as prevelant in my beloved southern APPALACHAN states... while I myself find this curious, the Ignorant statement "Obama...has an Appalachian problem" is evident of your geographical inadaquacies. The truth is Obama has as hard of a time holding the Appalaashan vote as well, a progressive might. BTW: "These are good people...they lean towards being clannish.. spare me the coal dusted whine..." Shove off A-hole.

P G Bowden

Submitted by Leslie DeVane on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 9:48am.

I would just like to say that my comment about W Va coal miners was not a whine. I am also not trying to paint Hillary Clinton as a coal miner's daughter. I am just pointing out a fact. If the people of W Va are distrustful of outsiders perhaps the misconceptions that you have about them and are stating in your post may be a valid reason for them to have that distrust. The common stereotype of people from the mountains is that they are ignorant hillbillies and inbreds. This is no more true than all blondes are dumb. There are pockets of poverty all over this union and if you don't believe that you are the one that is ignorant. Look around your state they are there so why don't you get off your high horse and work in your community to reach out and help include them. You Obama supporters talk a good game about inclusiveness but the fact that you refer to working people in this manner is arrogant and hypocritical. My comments in my earlier post to Mr Sinclair was to point out these people have value in our society. I have a feeling that if the people that he referred to knew his opinion of them they would be glad to be rid of him as well.

A Typical Response

Submitted by pgbowden on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 11:37am.

Well Leslie, your imapassioned defense of Appalachia is admirable (and understandable), but you seem to love debating strawmen. I pointed out a few facts--not misconceptions--about the historical nature of the people who settled this region (the Scotch-Irish, of which I am one), and the hair-trigger nature of your tribalistic defensiveness got set off again. You seem to be debating some fictitious character which exists mainly in your own head. You might try using a little less projection and try actually reading and trying to refute my points next time. Of course the people of W. Virginia (and Appalachia) have value as human beings. Are you really so keen and classically-conditioned to look for a slight that my (or someone else) pointing out a few historical facts sets you off? BTW, I'm an Arkansan (which went 70% for Hillary) and am not unfamiliar with southern stereotypes. I'm a liberal living in a red community in a red county in a red state and have all my life, and I've heard the stereotypes all my life. But many stereotypes have a basis in fact. I realize that not all Arkansans are "retards" as you put it, any more than W Virginians are. There are always exceptions to any generalized truism. But the truisms exist nonetheless (and no, I'm not saying most W Virginians are retards, which I'm sure must be pointed out lest you infer it). That's not being on a high-horse; it's called being an adult and accepting facts, even ones we dislike. I accept the unfortunate facts about my own state (such as they are)--the question is, why can't you accept yours?

Well Bowden

Submitted by Leslie DeVane on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 1:22pm.

I am very well aware of the history of my home state and know who the early settlers there were. If you had paid attention I argued the distrust of outsiders issue you stated. I disagree with you that I am feeling slighted. Also in your arrogance you used a disgraceful word 'retard'. Look how easily it rolled off your fingertips. Ignorance is not the same as mental retardation. One can be reversed with education and the other is a health issue. To imply that is what I am inferring is ridiculous. Quoting your truisms and facts. Your type along with the press has be psychoanalyzing this campaign to death. Pigeonholing everyone into neat little biased packages if they don't vote for Obama. Get real you just enjoy talking down to people and trying to justify your superiority complex. You injected yourself into my response to someone else so don't be surprised when I respond to you as well. I know who I am and am proud of my heritage and I won't let someone else trash it without a fight. I made no comment about your home state of Arkansas you brought that up so you can put that one to rest. Now who is feeling slighted. You can have your Obama he is all yours. I just hope you are as happy with him in 4 years as you are right now. We shall see if all this adoration and trust is justified if he wins in November.

Talk about interjecting oneself into a response

Submitted by pgbowden on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 2:57pm.

I wasn't responding to your original response to Sinclair in my first post, you ignorant twit, but simply making a few comments based in fact which were intended to stand on their own merit (try reading Jim Webb's book about the region). If I had intended on responding directly to you I would have done so--BY HITTING THE WORD "REPLY" UNDER YOUR POST. Isn't that the way it works? Or could it be more paranoia on your part. In fact, you are undoubtedly one of the more paranoid and hypocritical posters I have had the misfortune of conversing with on this site. You twisted everything I originally wrote into some bizzare, surrealistic pretzel of illogic. You whine about psychoanalyzing and then you psychoanalyze others. My so-called "superiority complex" exists only in your inferiority-complex-laden brain. Jesus Christ, I believe you really are ashamed to come from W Virginia or you wouldn't be responding with such a burr up your butt. And honestly, I really don't give a shit if you vote for Obama--we're all going to get exactly the government we deserve. And just for record, I happen to love the people of Appalachia, but I'll not shy away from quoting facts about the region whereever and to whomever I like, whether it offends your delicate tribal sensibilities or not. How do you like them apples?

Bowden

Submitted by Leslie DeVane on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 3:35pm.

I guess you are the one with the burr up your butt. You had to resort to cursing to make your point. You just go to bed tonight and think whatever you want. Whatever floats your boat so to speak. As far as conversing with me it was your choice not mine. I said my piece in the first post to you. I am comfortable in my own skin and my heritage. I am no paranoid nutcase. You state you love the people of Appalachia but that sure is hard to see from your first post. You go back to whatever facts and truths you choose to believe in but the people from my home state deserve respect for who they are. They work hard and serve their country and they should not be referred to as ignorant and uneducated as a whole. That just is not true as I said earlier. You can find people that live in poverty all over this country but you are blind to that fact and want to pretend it exists only in one region. Another term you seem to love is tribalism. I guess that is your way of classifying people into little groups so if you are the chief of your little tribe go back there and live happily ever after. Fine with me.

Sheeez, DeVane

Submitted by pgbowden on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 4:23pm.

Yes, W Virginians are patriotic. Yes, they work hard. Yes, there is poverty in all 50 states. Did I say otherwise? Do I have to say everything that should be obvious to a 6th grader so I can be on record as having done so? Okay, here's something else I want to go on record about: All 50 states contain cellphones. There, I said it. Why do you choose to ignore the existance of cellphones in all 50 states by failing to acknowledge it? This fantastic imagination you have and ability to create strawmen in order to win an argument in your own mind is a true sight to behold. Just keep shouting how you're no paranoid nutcase and how "clean" you are and how proud you are to be from Appalachia. I'm sure at some point you'll come to believe it yourself. But it will not change these facts: Appalachians make less income (IN COMPARISON TO THE NATIONAL AVERAGE). They are less educated (IN COMPARISON TO THE NATIONAL AVERAGE). And sociologists have noted a certain clannish (i.e. "tribal") quality in the people (from which my own forefathers came). Those are facts. And no amount shouting down strawmen is going to change it. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. And the next time you reply to one of my posts, will that be MY choice, too? Only in Devaneland, where the sun must revolve around the earth. It's certainly no wonder you support Senator Clinton with such a wondeful imagination.

Deep division in the Party - Stop It Now!

Submitted by ERW on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 8:11am.

This has become a "media" driven Democratic primary. The longer it goes on, the more advertising revenue is poured into tv campaign commercials. I do not believe, that given the number of military men and women that West Virginia has sacrificed to an illegal, costly war, the people of that state will vote for John McCain, and vote for it to continue. Mrs. Clinton has had her moment in the sun. It is time for the Democratic Party to face reality. As long as she has a forum from which she can damage the presumptive nominee, she will continue to do so. What we all expressed our fears of, months ago, is indeed coming about. There is deep division in the Democratic Party. It is not "healthy" debate. It is not "giving everybody a voice in the process" It is becoming divisive and near "suicidal." And, it needs to end. Sooner, rather than later. We cannot continue this bloodletting into June. The Democratic primary season, for all intents and purposes, needs to end next Tuesday. We need to start coming together with a strategy to defeat Republicans in November. Anybody not on board with that strategy - to defeat Republicans - needs to, in the vernacular of the NBA "It's win or go home." If they can't win, they need to go home.

re West Virginia and GOP race-baiting...

Submitted by vvvc1 on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 8:01am.

PM, Senator Obama was doing FINE with White, rural voters - Iowa, Minnesota, elsewhere - until "Ms. Inevitable" found that her "I AM INEVITABLE!" campaign (and her "I can IGNORE my competition strategy) was going over like a lead ballon, whereupon she started banging Karl Rove's Race Baiting drums.
Ron Brown had "only" united BOTH the "Hollywood/celbrity/liberal/NYC big donor" wing of the party with the down-in-trenches inner-city, blue-collar, workin' stiff, union-workers" wings of the party... and he handed the Clinton Arkansas bunch a well oiled, well-funded NATIONAL operation that the Arkansas bunch rode straight into the White House. Now James Carville and George Stephanopolous are part of the very "Washington corrupt insiders" bunch that they railed about back in 1992! (I wish that someone with more time and access than me would comb through those 1992 videos of the Clinton campaign, and catch those clips of Bill, James, and George bashing the Washington entitled kleptocracy.)

Another Irony is that today Ms. Clinton claims as her core supporters, her staunches demographic.... the very "NASCAR voters", stay-at-home moms, and Country folk that she DISSED all through the late 1990s!

Remember her "I'm not just going to be a stay-at-home mom, baking cookies" and her "I'm not going to just 'stand by my man,' I'm not going to be a Tammy Wynette" comments insulting suburban moms, and country folks alike!

Now she is appealing to precisely that demographic - older moms and white country folks - as her base of support.

OF COURSE when then First Lady of Arkansas Hillary Clinton was collecting her WAL-MART Directors pay, that company was just getting going on its... two decade tear of, not only union busting, BUT KEEPING WOMEN OUT OF MANAGEMENT.

Hillary Clinton, collecting her Director's pay, while doing __?__ to prevent Wal-Mart from EXCLUDING women from management (and slashing at health care)!!

It is barely believable that West Virginia moms would vote for this record, but then again thousands of military men voted for then Texas Gov. Bush, who only went "AWOL" from the Texas ANG during the Vietnam war. IMAGE TRUMPS REALITY in American politics.

mrsinclair The West

Submitted by mrsinclair on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 6:49am.

mrsinclair The West Virginia primary results reveals more about the electorate specific to W. Virginia than it does about Sen. Obama or about the rest of the country (with the possible exception of Kentucky: Kentuckians and W. Virginias, are for the most part kissin' cousins.) Hopefully these states will not be allowed to set the course of the general election. With few exceptions W. Virginians and Kentuckians are uneducated, unwashed bigots and this is an informed decisions based on the many years I spent living and working in the area. My time there seemed like I was living in an alternative reality and when I left the area, I never looked back.

keep your heads in the sand

Submitted by leeswinton on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 9:24am.

If you really think the blue collar worker is just in west virgina and kentucky that won't vote for obama,let me give you a deal on ocean front property I have in kentucky.the only reason the vote(WHITE BLUE COLLAR) stands out so in w.virgina is their's no black vote there to hardly mention. In ohio,penn and indiana there was enough black population to offset and make it look like it was a close vote,Obama got the same amout of % of the white vote in w.virgina that he got elsewhere,it's just you people were able to spin it like OBAMA was the great massiah,because the 90-95 % of the black vote covered his a$$.I said I wouldn't ever post here again,but after MR carpenter coming to buzzflash and his constant sleezing of hillary at the cost of the truth 90% of the time.Mr. carpenter take along look in the Mirrow your are one of the main reasons hillary's voters will never vote for OBAMA

Any Working Class Whites in....

Submitted by Will B on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:48am.

....Iowa, South Carolina, Alabama, Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, North Dakota, Utah, Louisiana, Nebraska, Washington, Maine, Washington, D.C., Maryland, Virginia, Hawaii, Wisconsin, Vermont, U.S. Virgin Islands, Democrats Abroad, Wyoming, Mississippi, North Carolina?

Response to Mr Sinclair

Submitted by Leslie DeVane on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 7:44am.

Talk about insulting to your fellow Americans. I love how you lump everyone in W Va into one big group. This is an outrageous statement that they are unwashed, uneducated bigots. And this comes because Obama couldn't carry the state. I was born in that state and I am an educated and very clean and well kept human being not a cavewoman. You sir are the bigot. I no longer live in W Va but I will not sit here and listen to someone insult the people there because of some image you have in your mind due to your narrow view and bias in lumping everyone from that state into your narrow view not to mention Kentucky. I am sure that you did not meet everyone in the state when you drew your conclusions. Now on to BuzzFlash and the rest of the press, you are promoting this kind of image of Hillary Clinton's voters by constantly referring to them as uneducated and less affluent. Many people in parts of W Va work in the mining industry which is hard work and dirty work but without them you would not be able to turn on a light switch and have electricity because the coal they work so hard to extract fuels most of your energy needs. They come out of the mines covered in coal dust which is hard to remove with a shower when you are working in the mines day after day. This writers comment about these people that work hard so that you can enjoy many conveniences is on par with Obama's bitter remark. Maybe sir that is why people don't trust Mr Obama because when he thought no one was listening he insulted them by calling them bible thumping, gun toting rednecks. He got caught in the act and it revealed a side of him they did not like and trust. Not to mention his 20 year friendship with Rev Wright. Of course your view and Mr Sinclairs's is that they have to be bigots. I ask you sir why don't you ask the 90 percent of black voters in state after state that are voting for Obama if race was a factor in their vote. Oh no you won't ask his African American supporters that question. Are they racists? I can't answer that question but you automatically assert that white voters that answer this question are racist. You people are part of the problem. If you are white and don't vote for Obama you are a bigot or racist because in your mind there just cannot be any other reason. Your statement that the people that answered the question were just the "ones" that were honest enough to state it. You are indeed as bad if not worse than Mr Sinclair for promoting this rubbish. Maybe you both should realize that if these people didn't do your dirty work for you your life might not be so comfortable.

Attack of the West Virginian DLC Elitists for Hillary!

Submitted by drprodny on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:33am.

My wife comes from Western PA near the WV border, and rejoices in being a "muleheaded hillbilly" - and she's for Obama over Clinton thanks to the sleazeball, negative and downright racist campaign she and her surrogates have been running. Maybe my wife's an exception to the demographic because, like a lot of other so-called "elitists", she comes from a working-class background and beggared(!) herself to get a college education - but one thing she shares w/my in-laws is a bone-deep distrust for the "Gubmint types" embodied by both Clinton and McCain.

Maybe Clinton would have done a bit better than Obama in WV in the General Election by pandering to the not-so-buried racism there - but even she can't beat McCain's LONG lead in that area! The Dems can not win Appalachia this November by another round of Rethug-Lite, DLC-approved "Me, too!" pandering - for one thing, no matter how low a DCL'er like Clinton or Lieberman sinks, they always find a Repig who's won by sinking lower. (It's no surprise to me, at least, that Holy Joe the Quisling is campaigning w/McCain - like any good DLC'er, Lieberman thanked the Clintons and the rest of the Democratic Party for knifing Lamont in the back by knifing them in the back in return.) The only way to win is to alter the conditions of the test by galvanizing the real Bitter-Americans of color and of progressivism, who see no substantial difference between a Clinton and a Bush, into voting.

Disappointed

Submitted by Captain Jessie on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:14am.

I do not back Clinton for various reasons of which I will not bore anyone. And I will not bore anyone with reasons that I like Obama. However, to trash West Virginia and Kentucky with under the radar comments should be beneath democrats. I have been in West Virginia and consider it to be one of our most beautiful states. Every state has its beauty and W. Virginia has their beautiful blue mountains, woodlands and picturesqe streams and rapids. Yes, WV is considered a low-income state, but I'll guarantee anyone that a West Virginian can do more with a dollar than you could ever imagine. These are gutsy, hard working and innovative people. When it comes to their politics (they have an American right) to say who they like, right or wrong. We seem to forget that. Although I like Obama, it does not mean that West Virginians who voted for Clinton on Tuesday are to be criticized for their ways, appearance, education, etc. Maybe West Virginians are just not ready for change, but more importantly, that is their their right. I really thought democrats were above these types of slams.

Let's think beyond race and region

Submitted by sl26 on Fri, 05/16/2008 - 12:10am.

Maybe the arrogant media and some of the bloggers will shame the people of KY in to voting for Obama or be labeled ignorant and uneducated. A few statistics for you folks. WV has a higher high school graduation rate than NY or CA. Vermont's population is 96% white. Bachelor or better- 29%. SO WHAT! It doesn't take a college degree to figure out that our country was a million times better off when Clinton was president. WV likes the Clintons and the state voted for him both times. After this primary election I think they will like them even more. Why? Hillary Clinton campaigned her butt off in WV. She rolled her sleeves up and worked from small town to small town. Bill was only blocks away from my house speaking to a neighborhood crowd. We tried to get Obama to do something similar. Silence. Hillary was at a state democratic rally 15 miles from where I live. Obama was invited too. Silence. I got 3 fliers from Hillary and one from Obama just a day before the election. (an afterthought almost). Robo calls from Hillary. Nothing from Obama. Silence again. The political strategy was not to spend much time or resources in WV. He would concede WV to move on to Oregon and Michigan. (the state with the highest unemployment) As a result: Hillary looked like the populist and Obama looked like the elitist. If these are his tactics in KY, he will not narrow the gap much.

Scenery?

Submitted by elirarey on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:32am.

Are you seriously suggesting that we should respect these people because of the beautiful scenery in their state? How about because they're human beings?

No, no, if they don't have beautiful blue mountains and picturesque streams, then it is okay to call them the toothless hayseed vote.

--ELI

Miscontrued reading

Submitted by Captain Jessie on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 4:53pm.

I honestly cannot figure how you came away with your impression of my post. I said W. Virginians are hard-working, gutsy and innovative. They also know the value of a dollar. I did not even hint that they were not human. My commentary was meant to honor the people of West Virginia and I'm still scratching my head about how you came to your conclusion of because they have a beautiful state, it's ok to call them the toothless hayseed vote. Wow, talk about reaching ... that was a far reach.

I see your point, but...

Submitted by Fnygy on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 9:15am.

I don't believe that Black voters voting en masse for Obama is akin to white voters voting for Mrs. Clinton. Solidarity is NOT racism - and the first truly viable black candidate is bound to get that solidarity - the same way Mrs. Clinton has benefited from the solidarity of women voters. (The fact that African American women feel more solidarity toward their race than their gender has benefited Mr. Obama to Mrs. Clinton's detriment - but it is neither racist, nor sexist.) I suppose it's POSSIBLE that some white voters are voting out of solidarity -but I find it unlikely that most white voters would feel a strong pull in that direction for the obvious reason that every viable candidate in the history of our country has been white. Having said that, I'm mindful of your overriding point that this alone is no proof of racism and I agree. Frankly, I prefer the term "prejudice" in these instances because it's more accurate for MOST people. We ALL have prejudice and bias that effects our judgement. The more enlightened among us (NOT necessarily the most educated) simply try to recognize those prejudices so that we are less likely to give a knee jerk response.

I'm confused..

Submitted by dbaragona on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:08am.

I'm a Hillary supporter that will definitely vote for Obama if he wins because I'm a Democrat and the stakes are too high...Here's why I'm confused...It seems that in all the swing and industrial states (not all) you can kinda predict the black-white vote...But you can't say that about the states out west..They are predominately white and have overwhelmingly voted for Obama..Granted, these were mostly Republican states that won't vote for him in the general (not all) but you get my point...This is where Obama has picked up a lot of his delegates and popular vote...So this black for black and white for white issue doesn't always hold true...Because of this racial divide, I think whoever wins, has to put the other on the ticket...Why take the chance??..

Excellent post

Submitted by Will B on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 11:23am.

...thanks for being a rationale voter. It's refreshing to hear that coming from Hillary's side. I applaud you and cannot wait until we join forces again to take on the real threat to our future - BUSH 44.

Another thought

Submitted by Captain Jessie on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:43am.

Perhaps Clinton women voters might not be as negative about witholding their vote from Obama in the national election if he chose Senator Clare McCaskill from Missouri for VP. She is also a female Senator. We hear that the Clinton backers want to see the first woman president but that does not appear likely. Seems under the circumstances, these same women would vote for Obama if Clinton was on the Obama ticket as a VP candidate. The question is, how would they feel about another female senator on the ticket with Obama? And don't forget the Hispanic vote. Wouldn't Gov. Richardson on the ticket gather a lot of the Hispanic vote? I think there are 3 strategic VP candidates to be considered strongly, and that Obama will choose from Clinton, McCaskill and Richardson. It's all about a winning strategy.

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West Virginia's Mountainous Imponderables

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