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Hillary Clinton's Hornswoggling

THE FIFTH COLUMNIST by P.M. Carpenter

Now come 150 prominent economists from the nation's finest universities to tell John McCain and Hillary Clinton that they are idiots.

In an "open statement" of response to the racketeering swill of a "gas tax holiday" now being foisted on this vast Republic, economists find themselves in uncommon agreement, but only because the proposal is so uncommonly stupid. The academics, in their statement, had a technical term for it: "a bad idea," which, also quite uncommonly, they dispatched with brevity: 

First, research shows that waiving the gas tax would generate major profits for oil companies rather than significantly lowering prices for consumers. Second, it would encourage people to keep buying costly imported oil and do nothing to encourage conservation. Third, a tax holiday would provide very little relief to families feeling squeezed. Fourth, the gas tax suspension would threaten to increase the already record deficit in the coming year and reduce the amount of money going into the highway trust fund that maintains our infrastructure.

Signers of this letter are Democrats, Republicans and Independents. This is not a partisan issue. It is a matter of good public policy.

But of course it is a partisan issue -- more notably for Sen. Clinton. McCain's coronation is all but official; he didn't really need to pull this ugliest of demagogic rabbits out of a hat at this time. Plus, this is the sort of fiscal insanity that comes naturally to Republicans, especially leading ones.

The economists know that. Had Sen. McCain been the only presidential candidate to propose the "holiday," they would have merely shaken their heads and said, "It's just John talking." There would have no forthcoming statement of socially scientific disgust.

For Sen. Clinton, however, these are the most desperate of hours. Every couple weeks or so she gets yet another chance to prove to superdelegates that she is indeed willing to do or say absolutely anything in the course of clawing her way to the top, if, indeed, doing or saying absolutely anything is what it takes.

"Toughness" has been redefined by the New York senator: it now means (which is to say, she hopes you believe it means) demagogic groveling of the worst sort -- be it promises to "obliterate" an entire people overseas or simply bamboozle the homefolks. The word isn't so much "shameless" as it is "shameful," and God bless these 150 economists for poking their usually cloistered noses into her shameful business.

I will admit that the assignment of higher blame is a difficult task. Hillary, it could be argued, it is only doing what representative democracy quite naturally leads to and the founders most feared: the hornswoggling by the few of the great many ignoramuses, whom professionals who study this stuff rather delicately call "low-information voters." The founders just called them "the mob," and they are indeed a frightening bunch.

Roughly 62 million of them marched to the polls in the last presidential election with the singular intent to reinstall the demagogue in chief who had been humbugging them for four years already. It is the Indiana and North Carolina residents among these 62 million whom Hillary now beckons. They are her only hope; but lucky for her, they often come in swarms.

There's no doubt that Hillary has studied the demagogic playbook of the White House's current occupant. For nearly eight years he has defied the better insights and advice of military professionals, scientific professionals, legal professionals, foreign policy professionals and economic professionals. He has been "tough" -- he knows his own unschooled mind and he has rebuffed them all. And, until the last year or two, the mob swooned in admiration.

Why? Because Mr. Bush simply dismissed the knowing insights of the professional crowd and instead played on the worst fears and cheesiest of aspirations of these "low-information voters," who, if they can just be whipped into a sufficient frenzy, constitute a majority. They are always willing to believe whatever taxes their minds the least.

Or their pocketbooks.

Even I can understand that. What I cannot understand, however, is that they're also willing to believe that the pol who is so brazenly duping them is only doing so in their best interests -- that he, or she, in this case, is just one of them who deeply feels their pain and is willing to risk professional judgment just to pull their uninformed butts out of the fire.

Tuesday's two-state results won't change the ultimate Democratic outcome, but it will give us some indication of the democratic state of things -- whether, that is, most voters have learned anything at all from the last eight years.

Please respond to P.M.'s commentary by leaving comments below and sharing them with the BuzzFlash community. For personal questions or comments you can contact him at fifthcolumnistmail@gmail.com

THE FIFTH COLUMNIST by P.M. Carpenter


Windfall Profit Taxes

If Hillary's plan is to recoup the taxes by charging the oil companies in a different way, why would she think that they would lower the gas prices because the way they were taxed had shifted?

I know I could make a case for it, but it is hardly a sure thing.

The other problem I have with windfall profits taxes is trying to figure out how you define a windfall profit.

Wouldn't a windfall profit tax be anti-free market? The possibility of profits and losses is one way that the market has of pricing economic risk. We should think long and hard before fooling with this market driven mechanism.

I would take it another step

"What I cannot understand, however, is that they're also willing to believe that the pol who is so brazenly duping them is only doing so in their best interests" What I cannot understand is how they can so readily believe the editorializing of the mainstream media that the pol who is so brazenly duping them is only doing so in their best interests. Who are you going to believe -- your lying eyes or the network news? Baudrillard's hyperreal postmodernity? Maybe. Maybe the American people are just dumber than a bag of rocks. We were led to believe in the Soviet era that a large proportion of the people understood that Pravda lied. Where is that critical attitude here today toward our media? I just finished a book on the Nazi era called "What we knew". They concluded that about 40% of the population under the threat of severe penalty nonetheless listened to foreign radio broadcasts. Does that mean more people under Hitler had a wider range of unfiltered international viewpoints on the news than the typical American enjoys today?

Hillary Hussein McCain gas tax imbroglio

McCain is a doddering old fool who takes it up the butt from his Republican masters. Hillary is an opportunistic bitch who won't stop at anything, including the destruction of the Democratic party, to get elected. Unfortunately for her, she's behind in the delegate count. Obama is a politician, right enough, but at least he has enough sense to call a spade a spade, namely, that this suggestion of McCain's (implanted remotely, no doubt, by Cheney) is pure-d bullshit. McCain doesn't know any better, while HillBillary doesn't care; she just wants back in that ol' Oval Office. Maybe she can entertain some young dudes behind locked doors...except she's looking pretty ravaged these days. Gaaahhh!!!

lead, follow or get out of the way

18¢ from the federal government and 14¢ from the state of Florida = 32¢ reduction in the price of gas per gallon. Eliminating the corporate welfare check to the Oil companies will also reduce our national expenditure by 10 billion dollars + per year. It won't change the supply and demand balance but it's a start. A 20 gallon tank will cost $6.40 less to fill……..sounds good to me. What is Obama offering?

What the market will bear.

The oil cos have already seen what you're willing to pay for gas. If the tax is removed, they'll just raise the price. Nobody gets out of here alive.

seriously?

300,000 jobs lost in federal highway maintenance - and the maintenance goes undone. So, you can use the $6.40 you save toward the damage done to your car when you hit that pothole that won't be fixed. The phrase 'penny wise and pound foolish' has never been so apt. Clearly, we have different ideas of what constitutes "leading."

Does A Gas Tax Holiday Make A Difference?

"By a few cents a gallon if that." "What'll make a difference?" "Our electing someone president who'll end the Iraq War, negotiate with Iran plus turning things around here at home." "And then what sort of world?" "It'll be up to us."

Coming soon.

I have no doubt that in a few days Mrs. Bill Clinton will suggest dealing with high food prices by eliminating the income tax for a while. That should energize her Republican base.

Serious stuff!!!!

I know we have had our differences back & forth on Buzzflash, but this is serious enough for all of us to join together to help defeat. I'm not blaming Obama for this because the Whole Congress has already passed it. Please read it with a open mind. It's hard for me to even believe we are considering this. http://www.cfiflistmanager.org/globalpovertyact1nm.html

Center for Individual Freedom?

Please find a better source for this.

"The CFIF is involved with "strict constructionist" activities regarding judicial and legislative issues. The organization maintains Freedom Line, a radio interview show and We The People, a grassroots organizing effort dedicated to conservative causes." ~Source Watch

"The Center for Individual Freedom is calling on its activists to contact their senators and urge confirmation of John Bolton as Ambassador to the UN.

CFIF makes it easy to do so, providing an automated form and suggested text that reads:

'[Bolton] has demonstrated repeatedly that he is a zealous and effective advocate for U.S. interests. He has also proven that he can be an effective voice in the world body. Bolton's healthy skepticism of the U.N. has given him a strength of argument in pressing for U.N. reform that no other nation's representative enjoys.'" ~People for the American Way

And I just love THIS ONE.

I'll consider this issue from unbiased source... so find one. Using a winger website here to support anything is kind of odd.

Center for Individual Freedom?

Clemsy.....After searching the web for quite awhile I have found liberals are for it & Conservatives are against it. I have not been able to find a unbiased source. Being a Independent I will have to investigate this more. If I find out the US will be liable for 845 billion dollars over 10 years, I will be against it. I'm begining to feel like Charity begins at home. There is also a mandate, from what I understand, that gives the United Nations the right to ban guns in all of the participating countrys. I guess I skipped over the John Bolton thing. I didn't even notice it. He's a man I cannot stand!!! I certainly could use some help & opinions with investigating this.

I have no...

...problem with this bill, personally. Yes. More helping the poor. Less killing them. As long as the money is used to promote self-sustenance and population control... which is, of course, problematic with the current 'abstinence only' administration. But them, I am indeed a liberal.

Clemsy

And the banning of Guns???

Where's that?

Didn't note any such wording.

It's just pandering.

Mrs. Bill Clinton's communications director, Howard Wolfsohn, was asked yesterday if he could name even one expert that supports the gas tax holiday. The answer? "Polls show the voters like it." That's the definition of pandering, and it's all she's got.

It's just pandering.

The question to the experts is just about the "gas tax." No one has asked about the "gas tax if there was a way to pay for it". I'm waiting to hear the experts answer on that. Well, it's about time they did something for the "voters." She's got a couple of different ways to pay for it without hurting the economy. But you're right, no way she could get it passed in time for summer, so I guess it's pandering. But if you were to ask the independent truckers that are going broke, I would imagine they wouldn't think it was pandering.

she uses the same money twice

She says she'll pay for the gas tax holiday with a "windfall profits" tax on oil companies. Setting aside the fact that Mrs. Clinton does not govern by personal fiat and would need substantial support from her colleagues that she does not have to make this idea fly - she's already committed this money elsewhere in her alternative energy proposals (where they make a boat load more sense.) This is the text book definition of pandering.

Uh huh

And we always turn to truckers for political and economic analysis.

Uh huh

You know that's not what I meant.........But if enough of them go out of business or park their rigs, watch how political & economic it gets!!!! And no, I am not a trucker!

With all due respect

...to the trucking industry, reinvestment in rail for long haul goods shipping is long overdue. Besides, this tax thing has nothing to do with truckers and everything to do with summer vacationers.

Giving the truckers a two month break is meaningless and solves nothing.

Right now the federal reserve is at 97%, so supply, at least in the short term isn't the problem. Demand is going down for the first time in 17 years, so demand isn't causing the price spike. The dollar is down 10% over the last year but oil is up 85%, so that's only a piece of the problem.

Commodities speculation is artificially ratcheting up the price of oil right now. People are getting obscenely rich, and the concentration of wealth at the tippity top of the heap goes on apace.

A two month tax break is not only useless, it's just another slap in the face as we take it bending over.

I'm an elitist

I like R.E.M and Fleetwood Mac, not Kiss and Metallica. I like asparagus in the spring from my own patch, not several-day-old stuff from far away. I like Chris Rock and Steven Colbert, not Dane Cook and Carlos Mencia. I'm an elitist. I'm also hanging off the edge of poor. Since when does democracy mean that we have to have a slob for president? Or a slut, which I define as a person who hangs out with a slob? I would pay extra for a manual transmission. I'm retired, but I will do most anything for $8.00/hour, but only if I'm asked to do it, and not for 1 penny less. I know there are a lot of stupid people in the world, and I don't hold it against them, but I won't spend any time trying to make them feel smart. I think the rich and powerful will destroy the earth, but I volunteer at the kindergarten to help kids become rich and powerful, because I hope that I am wrong. I can't fathom why anyone should be criticized for being elitist, as if it is something to be ashamed of. If all the rich people were merely elitist, rather than greedy and arrogant, we would be okay. Barack Obama is an elitist, and I salute him for it.

No sir.

Gregory, you're not an elitist. You just have good taste.

Taxes

It's hard to have any kind of sensible discussion on taxation because most people think of taxes as a kind of government expropriation of money that is rightfully theirs rather than a way to buy services that everyone benefits from.

Our federal tax code is a mess and the same is probably true of most state taxes too. There's no doubt that tax breaks are often given to those who have the most and people at the bottom end of the scale are often feel they are paying too much, many might even be said to be "bitter." Tax breaks for businesses and cuts in basic services like education and health care.

On the proposed gas tax summer holiday, I think most of us realize it can't really be enacted much less paid for my raising other taxes. So for candidates to propose it really is sheer pandering.

No doubt gasoline costs a lot, and will probably not ever be cheap again. Already consumers are reported to be buying smaller and hence more fuel efficient cars. But on the issue of a tax on gasoline the real problem is that our tax is too low. What - about 18 cents a gallon? Not even a percentage like most other taxes. In Europe before oil was $100+/barrel a gallon of gas cost about $4/gallon. I don't know what it is now - double that?
Our fuel tax should be higher for the following reasons -
1. Discourage wasteful consumption and overly large passenger vehicles.
2. Discourage wasteful consumption because the world will run out of oil sooner or later
and it should be in everyone's interest to consume it slowly.
3. We all like our cars and like to drive, but the fact is that roads are a blight and urban traffic is often a nightmare. We should have much more and much better public transportation within urban areas and between cities. Taxes on gasoline can help support alternate means of transportation.
4. Global warming. More driving means more warming and dirtier air.

Why don't the candidates "pander" to us by changing the conversation on taxes, start talking about addressing the imbalances in our tax collections? All of us would like to hear that someone richer than us is going to have to fork over more. After all some Wall St. guy made $3.7 BILLION last year. Income is terribly maldistributed. We can't expect anything to change quickly but I would like to hear some proposals we can all talk about rather than small sops thrown to the populace like tossing loaves of bread off the back of a truck.

Colleen Clark
Cambridge, MA

yep

You got that right, as usual PM, but it sure can sound elitist.
I think fixing the probable manipulation of voting machines might bring that 62 million down into the 50's.
And maybe enough on-message cool people standing together can take it down further.

Logic and Politics

As I view the comments of all the people all over the net I have come to see that politics is no different than religion. Those that adhere to one candidate or another (as those who cling to one religious leader or another) care nothing at all for logical debate on any matter. they take it on faith that if they hear something bad about the one they don't support it must be true and if someone says something bad about their candidate then the teller is speaking lies(heresy in religion) or they are unfairly bashing their chosen one. No amount of if A is true and B is true then C follows. No thinking is allowed. Just the emotion of the moment. I believe that in the end the people get the government they deserve and if it turns out that it is another Republican bent on giving the working middle class's wealth to the top 2% whiling promoting perpetual war to fatten their coffers and kill our youth and drown our economy in debt then sadly all of us who can see and think will drown when the ship sinks just as surely as the ill informed emotional sheep that dragged us kicking and screaming over the edge.

Wait a second, that ended

Wait a second, that ended with a bait-and-switch. Probably unintentionally, but the essay needs a second draft. First we were talking about a certain class of voters that may or may not turn out to vote in large numbers, and then we swap those people out and substitute "most voters". And, come to think of it, since we are talking about a vote to be held in two particular states, and within the confines of a Democratic primary, the switcheroo is at least three ways; it may be fair to extrapolate roughly from a few states to other states, cautiously, but how people vote in a Democratic primary is how people vote in a Democratic primary, not "most voters". Pick one group and stick to it! :)

Same old double standard ...

Clinton proposes a gas tax “holiday” and she’s attacked for “pandering.” Obama actually votes for a gas tax holiday three times while state legislator. During one debate, he even joked that he wanted signs on gas pumps in his district to say, “Senator Obama reduced your gasoline prices.” But that's okay. (BTW - Signs were posted crediting the Illinois General Assembly.)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_el_pr/obama_gas_tax_fact_check;_ylt=AjGJglSPqBIaVXJG_II50sqs0NUE .

Oh ...... forgot. He's a new kind of politican ......... one who speaks truth to power! He's no liar or panderer like Billary KKKlinton! Besides, pandering to American drivers is WAAAAAAYYYYY worse than pandering for the homophobic bigot vote, right? http://www.americablog.com/2007/10/obama-great-many-african-americans.html .

No, but it IS okay ........... 'cause he's not Hillary.

Could it be?

Maybe Obama learned from his experience. You'd probably say he should dump Michelle for his first girlfriend. I f I was to list all the lies, flip-flops and backtracks from Mrs. Bill Clinton you wouldn't look to good. Her campaign has already publicly admitted they can't find even one expert that supports her plan. That's called pandering.

Almost anything "could" be ...

... but the study of the Illinois tax holiday wasn't able to determine the benefit (or lack thereof) of the holiday. It's much more likely that he wants to differentiate himself from his opponents and use it to criticize Hillary by promoting his theme of "speaking truth to power" ... probably smart campaigning, but not necessarily based on higher principles.

That being said, does his "pandering" by touring South Carolina with a homophobic bigot bother you? http://www.americablog.com/2007/10/obama-great-many-african-americans.html . Or do you only criticize Hillary when she's "pandering"?

BTW - If you want to list Hillary's "lies, flip-flops and backtracks" - knock yourself out. In fact, be specific, because you've previously alluded to "lies" (i.e. Northern Ireland, Macedonia, etc.) that were, in fact, not lies. You can let me worry about whether I'll "look to (sic) good."

Yeah

Sorry about that typo. Even professional writers like myself make them, and rely on proofreaders which I have on my day job. So being in agreement with every economist is only "smart campaigning" even though he came out against before the experts. Just maybe he knows something from experience. I know nothing about your homophobic minister except what you cited on a dubious blog by a dubious writer. When a legitimate source, especially one trying to destroy Obama, points it out I'll believe it, and condemn Obama for it. As far a s Mrs. Bill Clinton's lies, every single one I listed is verified. The Nobel Prize winner for peace in Northern Ireland is on the record she was merely a cheerleader. Same in every other place. So if you refuse to check your facts, and just stamp your foot, you won't look two good.

Yes, it was smart campaigning even without ...

... the support of the economists (i.e. prior to and/or even if they never came out in support of him).

As far as his campaign tour with "Pastor" Donnie McClurkin, I'll give you a little background. McClurkin is an "ex-gay" gospel singer and minister who has called homosexuality a "curse", has repeatedly stated his opposition to homosexuality as being against "the intention of God." He also thinks that that homosexuality is a choice and can be “cured” through prayer, and that gay people are “trying to kill our children.” But hey, he's very popular in South Carolina and, according to Obama's letter, “a great many African Americans share Pastor McClurkin's beliefs.” So it's okay, I guess. Hey, do ya suppose that would apply to an anti-Semite or Klansman, as long as they're popular?

Anyway, I digress .... you need more sources to believe it? Okay, how 'bout:

Huffington Post? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/25/obama-campaign-releases-o_n_69892.html

How about another anti-Clinton blog - TPM?
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/10/big_gay_group_condemns_obama_for_campaign_event_with_antigay_singer.php

How about The Hill?
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obama-pressured-on-gay-cure-preacher-2007-10-24.html

The Advocate?
http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid52812.asp

How about The Atlantic?
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/barack_obama_donnie_mcclurken.php

ABC News?
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/liberal-gay-bas.html

NY Times?
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/obama-criticized-over-singer/

I'm getting bored, and you can Google just as well as anyone else, so .......

My point is NOT that I think Obama is a homophobic bigot .... I don't believe that for a second. My point is that ALL politicians pander to voters in elections and, quite frankly, I think it's a helluva lot worse to bigots by touring with a bigot than to pander to drivers by proposing gas tax relief.

BTW - Please, PLEASE tell me you were being tongue in cheek about being a professional writer.

Not in the least

You've seen my work.

Where?

These postings on BF? Ahhhhhhhhh ..... now it's begining to make sense.

BTW - Still waiting for that condemnation of Obama re: his touring SC with "Pastor" Donnie McClurkin.

You're correct

on the Northern Ireland "lies". Another commonly repeated myth by some Obama supporters, who have no problem imitating the right wing liars on that subject. The fact is Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams said Hillary played an "important role" in the peace process. Catholic leader John Hume, who shared the Nobel Peace Prize, said "in private, she made countless calls and contacts, speaking to leaders and opinion makers on all sides, urging them to keep moving forward". Former senator George Mitchell, who chaired the talks in the 90s, said "she was helpful and supportive, very much involved in the issues, she knew all the delegates".

Actually

Hume is on record saying she was merely a "cheerleader."

Wow ... that's quite the list of lies, Bettysdad

Northern Ireland? So you think she was just a cheerleader? Are you saying Obama is a liar? Cause his campaign acknowledged she played an important role in the peace process.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA_LBieb8PQ&eurl

Not good enough? Okay, then try:

Times Tribune 3/17/08

Ireland Prime Minister Bertie Ahern called Mrs. Clinton “hugely helpful” in the process both as first lady and as a U.S. senator, and suggested some of the criticism of her are unfair.

Moderate Catholic leader John Hume credited Mrs. Clinton with speaking to leaders and opinion makers on all sides, making countless phone calls and urging them forward. Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams credits Mrs. Clinton with playing “an important role.”

How about ...

Former SDLP leader John Hume has also come to Mrs. Clinton's defense, expressing surprise that anyone should doubt the importance of her contribution.
"I can state from first-hand experience that she played a positive role for over a decade in helping to bring peace to Northern Ireland.".
"There is no doubt that the people of Northern Ireland think very positively of Hillary Clinton's support for our peace process, due to her visits to Northern Ireland and her meetings with so many people. In private she made countless calls and contacts, speaking to leaders and opinion makers on all sides, urging them to keep moving forward."
She went beyond the traditional, ceremonial duties of first lady, however, particularly in facilitating the engagement of women in the political process by introducing Vital Voices, an international organisation she founded with former secretary of state Madeleine Albright, to the North.

Former senator George Mitchell, who chaired the talks leading up to the 1998 agreement, said this week that he believed that Mrs. Clinton's characterisation of her role was generally accurate. "She was helpful and supportive, very much involved in the issues. She knew all of the delegates," he told CBS News.
"Her greatest focus was on encouraging women in Northern Ireland to get into and stay in the political process and the peace process and as I've said publicly many times and wrote in my book, the role of women in the peace process in Northern Ireland was significant."

Irish Times 3/12/08

Or how about ............

Inez McCormack, first female president of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions:
Baroness May Blood of the House of Lords, who worked for many years as a community leader in the Shankill area of West Belfast

Geraldine McAteer, Chief Executive of West Belfast Partnership Board
1999: Northern Ireland Secretary Mo Mowlam : ‘Hillary is one of the essential reasons’ Ireland had peace. August 1999 issue of Talk Magazine.

Not that I expect facts to make much of a difference with you, Bettysdad.

Do you read what you post?

All of the quotes you cite indicate that she was a cheerleader. None of these people say she had anything to do with hammering out the agreement. Over and over again you quote people saying, she was "supportive""encouraged" etc. I suppose I had something to do with the nuclear test ban treaty.

Sure do ...

The truth hurts, huh? Clinton never claimed to have "hammered out" the Northern Ireland peace. She claimed to have "helped bring peace to Northern Ireland." The major players in the process call her role:

“hugely helpful”
“an important role”
"very helpful" and that her work with women was a "significant factor" in contributing to the success of the process."
"Clinton provided "decisive support" for the process."
"Senator Clinton played an important role in the peace process"

So, yeah ... her claim to have "helped bring peace to Northern Ireland" is accurate, not a "lie" as you claim.

BTW - You claim that John Hume was "on the record saying she was merely a "cheerleader."" Yet you have no citation or link. It seems to completely contradict everything he says in the statements I have in my post, which, as you can see, have citations................. Interesting. Now I know you, as a professional writer, would never make something up (or, as we lay people say - "lie"), but when did Mr. Hume say this? Where? Can you provide a citation? A link? .......................... No?

That's what I thought.

Uh huh

Sorry I can't provide a link to Hume's comment. I saw it on TV and heard on the radio. Assuming your quotes are correct, what would you say about the US president's wife? I'm not going to tell you what my work is, but since you think you are a genius, I'll expand by saying you've seen and heard my work. Now go back to searching for negatives about Obama on white supremacist sites.

Bettysdad.....

I saw the Fox show you're referencing, so I also KNOW he (BRIT, not JOHN, altho, the former MAY have quoted him previously) said it. But you're wasting your time trying to have a legitimate debate with this fool, Yboy. It is an exercise in one-sided arguing; he vs. his own ego. He basks in the warmth of his own personality---YOU are merely the vehicle, or the means, he uses to express his love of his own writings, words, and pseudo-intellectualism.

He is an arrogant, pompous, narcissistic, snarly, little twerp who punches up Google, copies the first 5 entries, and then posts them as some sort of proof for his idiocies. As already proven, he sometimes does not even fully read that which he cites----hes a despicable, weasley, little clown. Nothing more.

Anyway, I've currently been involved in a project that has kept me quite busy lately, and I've missed the last few weeks postings, and I don't have the time to research as usual, therefore, I'd recommend you refer to www.newshound.us/ and search there---you'll probably find video and reports to support your claims.

BUT, til then, refer to the following quote by Hume, he used the same quote ON THE PROGRAM:

"But the Daily Telegraph reports Lord Trimble says of Clinton, "I don't know there was much she did apart from accompanying Bill (Clinton) going around... being a cheerleader for something is slightly different from being a principal player."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336588,00.html

The self-absorbed little creep loves to use his own comments as if they were emphatic, authoritative statements....etched in stone, for example:

"The reason you can't provide a link is because HUME NEVER SAID IT. Do you honestly believe if Hume called Hillary Clinton a "cheerleader" this wouldn't have made to print or the web somewhere?"

Yboy, I'll be back soon with a little leisure time---and nothing would give me greater pleasure then pulling your fancy plumage feathers out of your ass......once again.

Count on it.

Count on what?

You .... making me laugh? 'Cause I keep looking at your dramatic finish ("I'll be back soon ... Count on it."), and I can't stop laughing ........ seriously. No joke. It's like they made a spoof of the "Go ahead, make my day" scene from Sudden Impact .... only instead of Dirty Harry with a .44 Magnum, it's a skinny little kid with a squirt gun. It's funny! But I guess I'm partial to spoofs, so ... And the repeat attempts at amateur psyochoanlysis ...... emphasis on "psycho". Can you say "projection"? That's good too, but not even in the same league as the "Dirty Harry" ending.

In terms of the alleged Hume comments, check the posts. Both bettysdad and myself were talking about John Hume, not Brit Hume, unless you're operating under the delusion that Brit Hume won a Nobel Peace Prize sometime recently. Nice attempt to conflate the two, though. I know Trimble was the one who made the "cheerleader" comment. Took about 10 seconds to pull that up. But I wasn't about to make it easy on Bettysdad. More importantly, it was Trimble who said it, not John Hume, as Bettysdad claimed. Even more importantly, look at your own quote. ONE player says "I DON'T KNOW there was much she did apart from .... Did you notice that? It's called a "qualifier," and a huge one at that. Just because he doesn't know about her role in the peace process doesn't mean she didn't help with that process. Finally, many of the other major players in the process acknowledged the significance of her role, including JOHN Hume (you know, the relevant one):

John Hume has also come to Mrs. Clinton's defense, expressing surprise that anyone should doubt the importance of her contribution.
"I can state from first-hand experience that she played a positive role for over a decade in helping to bring peace to Northern Ireland.".
"There is no doubt that the people of Northern Ireland think very positively of Hillary Clinton's support for our peace process, due to her visits to Northern Ireland and her meetings with so many people. In private she made countless calls and contacts, speaking to leaders and opinion makers on all sides, urging them to keep moving forward."

Irish Times 3/12/08

More importantly, many of the other major players, including Ireland Prime Minister Bertie Ahern, Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams, former senator George Mitchell (who chaired the talks leading up to the 1998 agreement), Inez McCormack, first female president of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, Geraldine McAteer, Chief Executive of West Belfast Partnership Board, Northern Ireland Secretary Mo Mowlam called her role:

“hugely helpful”
“an important role”
"very helpful" and that her work with women was a "significant factor" in contributing to the success of the process."
"Clinton provided "decisive support" for the process."
"Senator Clinton played an important role in the peace process"

So, most importantly, calling her claim to have helped the Northern Ireland peace process a "lie" is, in fact, the only "lie." Well ........that, and swapping out JOHN Hume for BRIT Hume.

BTW - As far as "pulling your fancy plumage feathers out of your ass ... once again", I'm still waiting for it to happen the for the first time. After all, everybody knows Red's the expert on "pulling stuff" ............... particularly out of your ass.

Oooooooooooops .... Your bad!

The reason you can't provide a link is because HUME NEVER SAID IT. Do you honestly believe if Hume called Hillary Clinton a "cheerleader" this wouldn't have made to print or the web somewhere? As far as what I would say about Hillary Clinton's claim to have "helped" bring peace to Northern Ireland, I would say it's accurate. I know that I would never call it a "lie", because it's no such thing. Beyond that, I wouldn't falsely ascribe statements to Mr. Hume or, shall we say, "lie" about him.

BTW - Who said I think I'm a genius? I guess I should say "Thanks," even if it's subconcious on your part. And you KNOW that I've seen and heard your "work." I say "work" in quotes, because you call yourself a "writer," as opposed to a journalist. Any real journalist would know the Hume quote is BS and would quite easily be able to source their ridiculous claims. Unless, of course, they're just making it up, or, as we geniuses say ............ "LYING." Must be some type of fiction .......... children's books? Ooooooh, better yet ... advertising? TV? Talk radio? The pieces fall into place.

BBTW - White supremicist sites? You mean like Huffpo, ABC, NY Times, The Atlantic, Americablog, TPM, The Advocate, The Irish Times ..... That's about as ridiculous as your other claims.

BBTW - Still waiting for your condemnation of Obama re: pandering to homophobes.

"i saw it on tv"

You've been directed to numerous sites as backup for the quotes offered and all you can offer is something you saw on tv. No one claimed she sat down at the peace table and hammered out the details. She was heavily involved in the process through lobbying and encouraging those involved. Many of those people have praised her involvement. And if you are unaware of the minister supporting Obama, and his comments, you were offered sites to check, and you dismiss them as "white supremacist sites". Since the sites included Huffpo and ABC news, I would say you really do need to get yourself up to speed on the facts.

Complete quote please?

Irish American magazine named Hillary "Person of the Year" in April 2007, and mentioned "her work on the Northern Ireland peace process". Hume also said, "She visited Northern Ireland, met with very many people, and gave very decisive support to the peace process". The quotes are at the link cited. http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=6430

fact check fact checked

From your link:

Obama's presidential campaign says the lessons of that Illinois tax holiday influenced his decision to oppose a national tax holiday. The lack of clear results then make him dubious about suspending the national tax now.

Obama wants to reduce gas prices, not by some bulls**t scheme that will actually enrich the Oil Companies, but by taxing their windfall profits, and encouraging them to keep the price under $80 a barrel with economic 'incentives.' And even $80 a barrel was unthinkable 2 years ago.

I'm not defending the gas tax "holiday"

As I've said previously, I think it's a bad idea. My point is the hypocrisy of those who claim Obama is above pandering while attacking Hillary on this issue.

Does anyone seriously believe Obama wasn't "pandering" for votes in Illinois when he voted for the tax holiday (during an election year, BTW). From Chicago Defender July 1, 2000 (available on Lexis.com).

"While Gov. George H. Ryan signed legislation suspending Illinois' five percent sales tax on gasoline for six months and issued an executive order creating state monitoring teams, Mayor Richard M. Daley Thursday vowed to keep an eagle eye on gas prices in Chicago.

Some people opposed it. Among their arguments:

Dr. Quentin Young, chairman of the Health and Medicine Policy Research Group, who said those funds are earmarked for health, education, and human services.

He called the passage of the state's six-month gas tax reduction nothing more than a "pre-November election states-manship" saying this will only force the legislature to compensate in other ways while "compromising the health of Illinois residents with future raids of the tobacco settlement funds and other state-funded programs."

Where was Obama on the issue?

Senators Kimberly A. Lightford (D-4th) and Barack Obama (D-13th) said the bill gives customers needed temporary relief from high gas prices. "Gas retailers must post on each pump a statement that indicates that the state tax has been suspended and that this temporary elimination of the tax should be reflected in the price per gallon of gas," said Obama."

Clearly, if Hillary is "pandering" now, Obama was "pandering" then. And this is far from the only example, including pandering to the homophobic vote by touring South Carolina with "Pastor" Donnie McClurkin because “a great many African Americans share Pastor McClurkin's beliefs.” http://www.americablog.com/2007/10/obama-great-many-african-americans.html . Even John Aravosis (a huge Obama fan and Hillary critic) was greatly offended by this. Frankly, pandering to bigots is far more offensive than pandering to people who drive cars.

His explanation that he learned the lessons from the Illinois proposal is a plausible explanation, but the study done afterward was inconclusive regarding the benefits. Far more likely is the simple explanation that he's looking for a way to differentiate himself from his opponents and get the focus of the media on this issue rather than the distractions of the past couple of weeks which have hurt him. BTW - I don't fault him for this, but I also wouldn't claim this is some sort of "bravery," either. Just good campaigning.

BTW - You mentioned Obama's support for a windfall profits tax (I'm aware of it). Hillary's long-term energy proposal also supports a windfall profits tax to fund alternative energy research and development.

Thomas M

tommy paine...You said... "Obama's presidential campaign says the lessons of that Illinois tax holiday influenced his decision to oppose a national tax holiday. The lack of clear results then make him dubious about suspending the national tax now." He voted for it 3 times!!! He's making it a big thing because it's his issue to get Rev. Wright off the front pages.

WHY, Y?

Can't you just admit that Hillary Clinton has absolutely sold her soul,and will do or say ANYTHING to get the nomination... Let me ask you this- do you think it's a good idea? She's F-ing PANDERING, again, and it makes me so sad, because I used to like her, and she and Obama were about equal in my eyes at the beginning of the campaign. I don't get how Hillary supporters can continue to be so willfully ignorant of the dirty pool she's playing. I really think she's got Karl on the payroll, or else someone in her campaign stole the playbook. She's lost all respect in my eyes. Don't be a fool, Y. And how do you compare his voting to temporarily eliminate a 5% gas tax in Illinois 8 years ago to the issue today? Disingenuous. Did you not read the article? 150 economists uniting to say this is a terrible idea? Do you want the oil companies to make more money? Do you want more bridges collapsing? Do you have a good answer to these questions? Doubt it.

Yeah ....

.... I want more bridges collapsing.

Doesn't everyone?

BTW - See my post above for the answers to your questions. You'll note that the Illinois gas tax monies were earmarked for health, education, and human services. Guess this means I should return your questions - i.e. Does that mean you want more diseases? Do you like illiteracy? Do you want the poor, elderly and disabled to die slow, agonizing deaths? Do you have a good answer to these questions? Doubt it.

I live in Illinois

I was here driving at the time that tax cut went into effect we were all crying about the horrors of $2 gasoline and the local government was trying to find some way to help alleviate the pain to all of us. That is when Barack along with everyone else in IL. learned that the oil companies weren't about to let us have that relief. Yman you support my argument that politics is just another form of religion.