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Would Kennedy Have Forgiven Lady Lyndon Baines Clinton?

THE FIFTH COLUMNIST by P.M. Carpenter

pp

OK, so maybe things seem "to just fester" under Hillary's "detached manager" style. And maybe she "delegated decisions large and small and deferred to advisers on critical questions" as her campaign was taking on water and swiftly sinking in the east, west, north and south.

And maybe she didn't "seem to know how to stop it" or even "want to stop it," as one authority on presidential management put it in this morning's New York Times.

And maybe, just maybe, those aren't exactly the most appetizing qualities in a prospective commander in chief -- removed, befuddled and careless -- but a lot of Democrats are eager to roll the dice. A few of them, however, are also beginning to hedge their bets, ever since Hillary -- or somebody -- decided the bad roll-of-the-dice Barack Obama would make a splendid vice president. Even though, as Hillary has alerted us, he's incapable of answering telephones with pluck and decisiveness at 3 A.M.

This immediately posed an executive dilemma that no one in the Clinton camp had thought of: If he's acceptable as veep, then that's a tacit admission that he's qualified as POTUS, right? Oh dear. Oh my. For heaven's sake. What, the Clintonites are now asking themselves, have we gone and done?

Well, they set themselves up for a lot of stuttering, stammering and backpedaling. That's what. And this was deliciously on display yesterday, as Clinton-booster Gov. Ed Rendell performed on "Meet the Press" some stunning cerebral backflips for Tim Russert; indeed, for all of us:

RUSSERT: So, if you believe he's acceptable as vice president, one heartbeat away from the presidency, you believe that Barack Obama is qualified to be commander in chief.

RENDELL: I think he's qualified.  I don't think he's as good a potential commander in chief right now as Hillary Clinton is. But I certainly think he's qualified. And I will work my heart out for him if he's our nominee....

RUSSERT: It--that seems to be in conflict with some things that you have said and what Hillary Clinton has said.... If Barack Obama's qualified to be vice president, he has crossed the commander in chief threshold. Correct?

RENDELL: Well, I, I think he's ready. He's not nearly as ready as Hillary Clinton is, there's no question about that. But, look, make no mistake about it, he's a talented, dynamic politician and, and a, and a good senator, and I think he would make a fine president. Again, is he as experienced and as ready as Hillary Clinton? Nobody is.... [Ed might want to rethink that particular line.]

RUSSERT: But if, in fact, there's a possibility Obama may be the Democratic nominee, would it be better, in the interest of the Democratic Party, that the Clintons not suggest that he hasn't passed the threshold to be commander in chief?

RENDELL: Well, sure. Look, there, there's rhetoric in a campaign on all, on all sides, and I, I think the, the issue should be framed as ready compared to Hillary Clinton. And, and that's the way I would frame the issue going forward. To me, there's no contest. I don't think -- it's not Barack Obama's fault. I think almost any of the other candidates would have fallen into the same category....

And that, as they say, was that: A rather indelicate, Emily Litella retreat from the campaign's principal offensive front. Never mind.

But what of this dicey coin's other side? -- the issue of Hillary as veep, which I raised yesterday as a party-mending salve.

The chief objection to this, of course, is that Clinton's savaging of a fellow Democratic candidate as unfit as commander in chief is not only inexcusable, but unprecedented. And while I won't -- can't -- differ with the inexcusable argument, her wretched behavior is, nonetheless, not entirely unprecedented.

See, for instance, Even Thomas' marvelous Bobby Kennedy: His Life, which I happen to have just read, for it contains an instructive reminder. To wit ...

When John Kennedy surprisingly secured the necessary delegates for a first-ballot nomination, competitor Lyndon Johnson, in a last-ditch effort to "stop Kennedy" before the vote, first instructed his surrogates to leak to the press that the party's impending nominee was suffering from a terminal disease (Addison's) -- that JFK was, in short, a dying man. But more than that, LBJ then staged a news conference in which he accused Joseph Kennedy Sr. as having been, in the 1930s, a "[Neville] Chamberlain umbrella man" -- in effect, a Nazi appeaser.

Read broadly, it was close to calling the old man's scion a closet quisling by familial association, but at the barest minimum, designed to call into question Kennedy's fitness as commander in chief.

Bobby, as Evan Thomas described him, was understandably "apoplectic" at this and threatened LBJ's organization in unambiguous terms: "You'll get yours." Meanwhile, however, John Kennedy "blithely" overlooked all the fuss -- Obama-like -- and chose Johnson as his running mate, even though other immensely powerful Democratic voices, such as the UAW's political operation, had warned the Kennedys: "If you do this, you're going to fuck everything up."

They didn't, and it didn't. The inexcusable was excused party-wide and soon forgotten. That's politics, and something Gov. Ed Rendell yesterday was, however painfully executed, reminding us.

That's not to say -- for this is politics, too -- that President Obama would not soon determine that the best possible use of Vice-President Clinton would be her investigating the effects of global warming in Antarctica, likely an eight-year mission. Welcome once again to the White House, Hillary, and a hearty goodbye. Dress warmly.

Please respond to the commentary by leaving comments below and sharing them with the BuzzFlash community. For personal questions or comments you can contact P.M. at
fifthcolumnistmail@gmail.com

THE FIFTH COLUMNIST by P.M. Carpenter




you see what happened to JFK didn't you.

If you don't learn from the mistakes of the past you are bound to repeat them. JFK picked someone as viscious as LBJ and look what happened to him. And Bobby! No No. The Clinton's have too many people that turned up dead that were supposed to be their allies...Vince Foster...Ron Brown. Nope, Obama needs to finish letting Hillary self-destruct. People seem to think that Her winning NY, NJ, and Texas, Ohio where such big deals, well in the general NY, NJ,and cali are dem states anyway and Obama hasn't lost a state yet that he was supposed to win and he would be in no danger losing those states in the general. as far as texas sorry but the dems have no shot there. Ohio is the only state up for grabs and would certainly be in play come the general against McHillary. So the whole notion of her delivering the big states is another Clinton twist of reality.

More dirty Repugnican tricks from the Clintons

Apparently, one of the Repugnican tricks the Clintons pulled to get the Republican out to vote for her in Texas was for Bill to go on the Rush Limbaugh show and urge of Rush's ditto heads to vote for Hillary!

This was arranged by Rush calling in "sick" so that Clinton would have an acceptable substitute host. Rush's audience of ditto heads, however did not call in "sick," and many thousands of them marched to the polls and voted for Hillary.

Despite Clintons' sleazy treachery, Obama still won the Texas delegate count.

Proofread

Corrrection Bradley and Gore supported Dean in 2004.

More on Bradley

After hurting Gore in 2000 Bradley teamed up with Gore to support Dean in 2000. So much for old foes not rejoining. I think Gore's support hurt Dean. And now Bradley, the spoiler, is supporting Obama. Some Democrats hate anything to do with the Clinton/Gore years and they will continue to sabotage our chance of electing a Democrat for the sake of their own ego. It looks llke Obama has a lot of support that is not direct support for him but rather anti-Clinton support. I think that should scare us all. Can he win the general election? I doubt it. If he does will he accomplish all his promises? Very unlikely.

Talk about not paying attention...

Talk about not paying attention!
Sheesh!

Footnotes and Links

What amazes me so about my Republican acqaintances (I would never be Friends with a Repug) is how they believe what they read and hear even though it has no footnotes, references or links. I always stress to them to believe only things that have the above and if they want to believe something without they should at the very least investigate it themselves before believing it. Now this is what I find my so called progressive internet sources stooping to. What a dissapointment. I became an anti-republican in 2000 when Bush stole the election. If Bradley had not beat up Gore so thouroughly in the Primary perhaps Gore would have gotten more votes and the stolen election might have been avoided. So don't rewrite history by acting like Hillary's fight with Barack (and he has started some of the fights) are something new because anybody willing to investigate will surely find that this is nothing new.

So your point is...

So your point is we should embrace First Lady Macbeth because she's not a trend setter? We should tolerate her campaign's vicious bile and stench because we've smelled it before? We should let her tear the party apart because it's been torn before?

Is that your point?

Then it's meaningless. We've accused Hillary of all kinds of things. But I don't think anyone here has accused her of originality.

If you were listening, you would know how sick we are that she has decided to follow Karl Rove's act with her rather clumsy imitation.

And I thought the Spitzer story was flakey

"After several days of Bill and Hillary Clinton floating the idea of a joint ticket with rival Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton chief spokesman Howard Wolfson declared Monday that Clinton does not consider Obama qualified to be vice president." From today's Chicago Tribune Political Blog (see Buzzflash)..... Another AMAZING Clinton piece. They are really going dark (as in the dumb, self-destructive sense). Slow pitching for 3 days that a Clinton/Obama ticket is, as Bill Clinton said on Saturday, 'almost unstopable'. Then when challenged on the logic of that statement (why VP when they say he's not qualified to be P), their communication chief switches gears and says he's not even qualified to be VP@! Then to top this incredible flip, Wolfson adds that Barack could become qualified if he's a good boy (not insinuating anything here) and follows their instructions between now and August!!!! Question: Has No. 2 in an nomination ever offered the VP position to the No. 1 before?? This really begs the question about their sanity....I'm not kidding and it's deeply disturbing. Why can't they simply tell us why they are better and leave the muddy craziness to the GOP? Her campaign staff (and she) are self destructing and I think that is very sad, especially since she can make a case for her campaign based on her marginal experience advantage. There is a narrative they could have pursued that would pursuade many of Barack's base. She could have, but they didn't - which turns out to be "Her Narrative". Can we stand 5 more months of this? Howard Dean; Do Democrats deserve 5 more months of this after 7 years from Shrub?

Breaking News: Gov. Spitzer caught with pants down

Now here's a golden opportunity for Hillary to name an even better running mate than "inexperienced" Obama.

The New York Times just reported Hillary's buddy, New York Gov. Elliott Spitzer, was just caught with his pants down (so to speak). The governor has just admitted to being one of the frequent fliers at a high-priced prostitution ring.

This is the former NY Attorney General who made news by going after glitzy, high-priced prostitution rings and holding press conferences to denounce those operations with disgust.

Seems like he's learned how to get past his disgust.

Considering that his Repugnican-like hypocrisy is a good match for Hillary Clinton's, I urge her to consider the Governor for her ticket instead of Obama. He comes already corrupted and won't need any breaking in. And there are additional benefits:

With Spitzer holding call-girl parties in the Vice President's office, she'll won't have to worry so much about Bill giving his lollipop to her White House interns every time her back is turned.

Enough is enough

What I'm trying to say with this is that we have to stop electing sleazy hypocrites, like Spitzer and the Clintons.

If progressive democrats are going to prove their case to the rest of American voters, we need to support candidates who don't behave like Spitzer, the Clintons, or others who have been making our party indistinguishable from the Repugnicans.

Finally, in Obama, we have a clean, charismatic Democratic candidate who's showed he not only can win, but that he can draw enormous voter turnouts and help Democrats win in even the most tightly held Repuginican seats.

Imagine, helping an unknown physicist take the "safe" Republican seat that was just vacated by former Speaker of the House Hastert. What greater sign from the Gods do we need? Are we so addicted to losing that we just won't listen? Have we learned nothing from years of watching the recklessness of Bill and Hillary Clinton, which cost us so much already?

Why are we trying to find a way to bring these old skeletons out of the Democratic closet and shove them back into the White House?

Enough's enough. No more sleaze. No more hypocrisy. No more Clintons. It's time to build a new progressive Democratic party and take our government back from the crooks and creeps of both parties.

Me!

I've been railing about this for weeks! Let's take it a step further: it was obvious to me from the time she decided to run for President and increasingly throughout the campaign that she was convinced -- CONVINCED -- that Billary, and only Billary were capable of saving the country. I got an "icky" feeling then that we were looking at a new version of the messiance delusions we had endured the last 7 years. Then I saw the bunker mentality, the yes-men, the insularity, her inability to understand what details she should focus on: happy in her 100-point plans but not noticing that her campaign was broke. Her judgment argument shattered before my eyes. Then her slippery, slimy ease with which she distorts and plants seeds of doubt. More and more, I became convinced she is unfit to be president. If she pulls off this sleight of hand, she has proven to me that she is incapable of sorting through the forest of details and crystallizing an idea or decision that gives proper weight to world events, history, the good of the American people. She doesn't have the charm of Bill or Bush (well, some people used to think so), she will be incapable of hobbling together a compliant Congress that will protect her, her staff will not be that disciplined (and I suspect, not as deep believers as Bush's cabal was). It's a disastrous presidency, if she gets that far.

the presidency

The problem isn't what candidates will or will not do to win the the presidency. The problem is the fact that you still have a presidency. bush has created a unitary executive that is not subject to the checks and balances of congress. No future president is going to cede those powers. It's time to rewrite what's left of your constitution and introduce representative parliamerntary democracy.

When talking about the Presidency, we won't settle for deja vu

P.M., the NY Times article you referenced also said this about Hillary Clinton's management style:

"Again and again, the senator was portrayed as a manager who valued loyalty and familiarity over experience and expertise."

Who else here is getting a sickening, stomach-turning sense of deja vu?

After eight years of screaming our heads off against America's manager-in-chief who values loyalty and familiarity over experience and expertise, why the hell would any of us want to repeat this tragic mistake?

You're also forgetting, picking LBJ was widely hailed as a politically smart move, which enabled Kennedy to narrowly defeat Nixon. Without LBJ bringing Kennedy Texas, Nixon would have staged Watergate a decade earlier.

With the exception of Arkansas, Clinton would bring no state onto the Democratic side that Obama cannot win on his own. The bullshit claim that Obama won't win California, New York, Michigan, Pennsylvania, etc. on his own is just that, bullshit.

By the way, I'm starting to worry that your column's name has no other meaning but the common one: A secret sympathizer or supporter of an enemy that engages in sabotage from within. Tell us it isn't so.

Obvious in the Campaign

The loyalty thing was obvious to me in how she ran/runs her campaign. She filled it with loyalists, and when they didn't perform, she still kept them, ala bush and his incompetent cronies. Though she did have one major resignation, I haven't heard of anyone else leaving. I figured that how the campaigns are managed is a good sense of how the presidency would be run. Comparing hers to Obama, he runs a much better campaign. His campaign has had its moments, like the verbal misstep of the foreign policy advisor, but that's not a campaign managereal goof. And on that stuff about states Obama has won that "don't matter" because he didn't win the big states, those big states are blue anyway (well, PA is purple). But Obama did win in Idaho, Wyoming, Nebraska, TEXAS (yes, he won Texas), and though they're red states, he has brought out more Democratic voters than any election in recent memory, if not in the state's history, and with that kind of enthusiasm, Dems stand a huge chance of turning out more voters than the repugs! So Hillary's claims are further BS in that regard. She can't motivate voters like that, and especially not new ones, crossovers (unless Comedian Rush Limbaugh is telling them to vote for her) or independents like Obama can, did, will. And while we so far have no real proof of this, I don't think she can help local-level Dem candidates to win seats from repugs like Obama did in Illinois with Hastert's seat. He's the one -- he's in first place, has more delegates, has won more states and is ahead in the popular vote. Will someone please tell me what's not clear about any of this? He's ahead, and he's not going to be her VP, and I don't think she'll be his (though it might be a compromise Obama would be forced to live with to stop the bloodshed). I saw him talk today, he's got his game back after that brief but nasty setback. She can't catch him.

What's not clear..

Unfortunately, it's not clear enough to the Democratic Leadership Council bosses, who are backing the Clintons. They're the ones who are propping her up and allowing her to smash the party with her me-me-me-me-me tantrums. Their interests are tied to the Clintons, not to Obama. And they're nearly as stubborn as First Lady Macbeth.

I just hope they're not as suicidal.

As for putting the Clintons back in the White House

I miss peace and properity

We do too...

Bill Clinton was smart enough to avoid starting two 5+ year wars while cutting taxes, and lucky enough to preside over an overheated internet economy, which fizzled just as he left office. So to that extent, Bill Clinton was good for our economy. Hillary, well she was first lady....

As For Putting Billary Back In the White House

I don't miss scandal and mendacity which laid the stage for our current dilemmas.

We ALL want peace and prosperity. But it's not a nostalia-commod

If you are thinking that choosing the wife of the President who 10 years ago presided over an era of peace and prosperity, will guarantee another period of peace and prosperity, even after the results of bush nearly ruining the country since then, I believe your (wishful) thinking is oversimplistic.

What a disappointment you have become P.M.

Before you started posting here, I used to read your column all the time. Would they only let you post here if you agreed to denigrate Hillary Clinton every single day? Some of what you pull out of your a$$ is just plain ridiculous and far-fetched. Have you considered the damage you may be doing to the eventual nominee if it turns out to be Clinton? After all, she has won states with far more potential Democratic electoral votes than Obama. The effective Republican crossover votes have been cast in red states for Obama. [I believe he may be a stooge for Lieberman and the Republicans designed to help McCain get elected.] Only slightly more than 100 pledged delegates separate the candidates today. The purpose of the 800+ super delegates is to determine who would best serve the Democratic Party and get a Democrat in the White House next year. It would seem to me that Clinton should be president (experience, experience, experience) and Obama vice president where he can learn the ropes (he is SO naive) to prepare him to be president in 8 years. Meanwhile, please try to return to your former self, P.M., and quit trying to kill the Clinton candidacy out of hand.

Next time don't check your logic at the door...

Mr. Jones, that isn’t the question. The question is how many red states will be in our camp if either Democratic nominee wins, not how many blue states will be out of our camp if Barack wins. This year the blue states are locked up for the Democrats, as usual. So who cares if Hillary won 5% or 10% more votes than Barack in those 13 states. Remember, Barack has won 28, or is it 29 contests. If you think that traditionally safe blue states are going to switch to the GOP in November if Barack is nominated, then it makes sense that you believe in odd conspiracy theories. This illogical position you espouse, which Hillary started, is evidence that she too is subject to this affliction – and that really means that she’s not qualified to answer emergency calls at 3 AM, or 3 PM.

Do you care so little about

Do you care so little about the climate crisis to suggest putting Hillary in charge of Global Warming/Climate Change?!? I would hate to see that become so politicized right when there's getting to be a huge consensus on the subject. Can you imagine what she might do with that as a tool to undermine President Obama and I agree with the previous poster who mentioned what happened to JFK. I understand the logic of hugging your enemy close to you so they can't stab you in the back but Hillary is really HillaryandBill. I guess you were joking--you were joking, right?

What my crystal ball says

Here's what my crystal ball predicts if we put First Lady Macbeth in charge of Global Warming Control and banish her to Antarctica:

-- By the year 2011, U.S. customs and border control agents will be overwhelmed trying to stem the tide of illegal penguin immigration.

-- Efforts to get Bill to smoke excess carbon dioxide failed because he refused to inhale.

-- Habeas corpus will be denied to thousands of broadcast and newspaper meteorologists as they're carted off in shackles to the new Guantanamo Bay prison camp.

-- Hillary and her supporters will justify her failed attempt to stop global warming by pointing out how easy it is for people living in the world's most arid regions to now get fresh water: They just have to melt all the icebergs floating off their coasts, which were once part of the giant Antarctic ice sheet.

-- They will also point out that her re-failure to get universal health care is being mitigated by the warmer climate: "People are catching fewer colds," Vice President Clinton declares.

You got to admire that woman: Life gives her deadly nightshade, so she makes lemonade.

Agreed, P.M. Carpenter must be joking

Here's the website regarding gathered evidence of George HW Bush's involvement in JFK's assassination: http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/FbiMemoPhotoLinkBushJfk.htm

Hillary sucks worse than Monica...

Just ask Bill.

Clinton as Veep

Lordy, I hate to be the one to bring this up. Jack Kennedy was assissinated. LBJ became president. Think about it.

Don't forget that George HW Bush was in the grassy knoll

And George HW Bush and Bill are buddies...

And I think

And I think there's a photograph somewhere of Dick Cheney, gun in hand, standing on the adjacent overpass.

He was just duck hunting, the Warren Commission concluded.

[Note for humor impaired: joke]

The Spin is Maddening!

Sure Hillary might make a decent veep, but that's NOT what the Clinton camp is suggesting. They are trying to get us all used to the idea of Obama as veep. Don't give up on your hopes because Barack will still be there, just not in the capacity that he needs to be. A figure head if ever there was one since it would most certainly be the Hil and Bill show. It'll NEVER happen! If she wins the nomination(dear God No!) she'll chose Edwards as her lapdog and he'll re-define himself once again and eagerly serve the position he seems to be hoping for. If Barack wins the nomination (he bloody deserves it) he'd be insane to select her. Then she'd only be an "unfortunate circumstance" away from her desired position. After the debacle of the last eight years, this is our chance to turn things around. Hillary is more of the same, Obama offers a chance at hope and change. Hope is the reason people have been risking their lives getting to this country and working their asses off for the last 200 years. Hope Baby! Obama style!